My thinking was I could just verbally work through your article and clarify/add the information you didnt have or was inaccurate as well as answer the broader questions you asked when the information you had didnt reconcile for you. Use of and/or registration on any portion of this site constitutes acceptance of our. They may, at best, support survivors or criticize fellow denominational leaders in private but will not use their power to do the same in public, she said. On page 18 of the Sills lawsuit, Sills and his attorneys present their accusation as fact. Things changed, however, once the abuse became public. Neither Smietana nor his editor offered comment to BNG when asked about the situation. It took months for Baptist Press to retract the article and address errors in it and that only happened after the former BP staff had been replaced and the article had been criticized by abuse advocate Rachael Denhollander. In the spring of 2019, Lyell, then a well-respected leader in Christian publishing, decided to publicly disclose that. There are plenty of reasons to stay silent in a situation such as this. Lyell was not writing to a professional journalist with a national news organization; she was writing to two bloggers who run a small nonprofit that investigates cults and preaches against the Enneagram. I am not a sinless victim. 2023 Baptist News Global. David Pooler, professor of social work at Baylor University, said sexual misconduct by clergy and other religious leaders is often labeled as having an affair. But that description misses the power imbalance at play. Her name appears on 37 pages of the report. She challenged those who questioned her motives. She did so after learning her abuser, a former Southern Baptist seminary professor, author and missionary, had recently returned to ministry. Jennifer Lyell in 2019 decided to reveal she had been sexually abused by a former Southern Baptist seminary professor who had recently returned to ministry. But opting out of some of these cookies may affect your browsing experience. However, today's topic is not about an up-and-coming musician, rather it is a cautionary tale for up-and-coming ministers of the Gospel. Southern Seminary President R. Albert Mohler Jr. told Baptist Press he could not disclose why Sills employment at the seminary ended. Then things went terribly wrong. I deeply regret that anyone could have been led to conclude that it was consensual based on what I wrote.. Our policies and procedures are clear and are consistently applied. However, not everyone has believed a sexual abuse crisis exists in the SBC. Lyell, who served as vice president of LifeWay Christian Resources, posted a confession in 2018 claiming how Sills, who has been married for over 30 years, sexually abused her and groomed her. Lyell told Baptist Press she has attempted to contact the Louisville Metro Police Departments Special Victims Unit. Sills was a professor at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary until his resignation on May 23, 2018. You also have the option to opt-out of these cookies. Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson thinks he redeemed himself. she disclosed to her boss at Lifeway that a former professor named David Sills had first "sexually acted" against her without her consent during a mission trip he was leading while she was a seminary student. It does not store any personal data. We also use third-party cookies that help us analyze and understand how you use this website. Read our republishing, terms of use and privacy policies here. They didnt they just kind of defaulted to me, and then realized later, Oh, crap, we shouldnt have done that., SBC Elites cite distinguished lawyer and Southern Baptist Matthew Martens; however, Martens has written persuasively, Supporters of a constitutional amendment to ban women pastors in the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), New intel points to Covid origin in a lab leak, remember when this was a, NAMB PR VP Mike Ebert emerges as key witness in McRaney v. NAMB What will, Leaked audio interview with Jennifer Lyell hits, featured in a new documentary on sex abuse in the SBC, David raped Bathsheba promoter involved in new SEBTS abuse class, SBC Abuse Expert Rachael Denhollander Sided with Amber Heard, SBC Elites defend credibly accused standard to ruin lives, Bart Barber flipflops on pledge to bring vote to ban Women Pastors in SBC, Evangelical Elites lied you to about the origins of Covid, Woke SBC Elites Delete History To Hide Their Schemes. It presented its report just prior to the SBCs annual meeting last summer.). In her statement, Lyell accused Sills of "grooming and taking advantage of his student." Lyell first disclosed the situation to a therapist in March 2016, she said. Sills admitted to engaging in inappropriate sexual activity and tendered his resignation. The same day, Geiger and Lyell contacted Mohler, he said. David Sills, a former seminary professor and missionary who admitted sexual misconduct, has sued a group of Southern Baptist Convention leaders and entities, claiming they conspired with an abuse survivor to ruin his reputation. Attorneys misidentified an email from Lyell, which was sent to a pair of ministers, not to RNS. According to Lyell, the reason she waited so long to come forward with her claims is because she was afraid that her coming forward could cause collateral damage impacting people she loved. Women are seen first and foremost as sexual objects, means to an end, she said, adding women are seen as temptresses, trying to bring a good man down and getting married is seen as a way of helping men deal with their lust. Out of these, the cookies that are categorized as necessary are stored on your browser as they are essential for the working of basic functionalities of the website. She has alleged Sills abused her over a multi-year period. Want to share a story? According to Baptist Press, Lyell was involved in the relationship with Sills from the time she was 26 until she was 38. The outlet additionally reported that Sills has also resigned as a trustee of the SBC International Mission Board and his position on IMB's presidential search committee. I am grateful for the diligent, fast work of Guidepost Solutions, particularly as the EC leadership delays from June-October 2021 took up 1/3 of the investigation period allowed by the investigation motion. RELATED: Southern Baptist leader, experts say churches should address the abuse of adults. The abuser often spends years grooming a victim and then does not let the victim go. Of course, Lyell spoke to multiple media outlets and is featured in a new documentary on sex abuse in the SBC. Functional cookies help to perform certain functionalities like sharing the content of the website on social media platforms, collect feedbacks, and other third-party features. "I think she was courageous in making those statements and I think it sets an example for how others should also demonstrate an equal courage," Mohler said. Though 30 pages in length, the key facts allged are right on the first page. Jennifer Lyell claims she never wanted the attention her abuse allegations created nor to harm the family of David Sills, her alleged abuser. David Sills, an ex-Southern Baptist Convention seminary professor accused of sexual abuse by his former student filed a defamation suit in Alabama against her and several SBC entities. But that's not quite what we see. Lyell previously was a vice president at Lifeway, which is located in Nashville, Tenn. She voluntarily agreed to an interview with Baptist Press in 2019, by her account hoping her story would encourage other survivors of sexual abuse to come forward. Once the person gets access, they keep that access, he said. Im also fine to answer any questions you or the other gentleman has to ensure you have clarity and believe me. Jen came forward at incredible personal cost to herself, to defend those who had no voice, Denhollander said. That happened three months prior to release of a bombshell report from an independent investigation that found widespread mishandling of known cases of sexual abuse in the SBC and its churches. And he claims this was done in a conspiracy by all the named defendants, who understood the value of making an example out of SBC member and employee David Sills who, without controversy, had admitted to an affair with Lyell and willingly accepted the SBC requirement that he depart from his position at the seminary. David Pooler. Its complicated. She claims . Lyell mentions police at her house and Dr. Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary calling the police. InterVarsity Press, which published one of Sills' books, removed Sills' biography page from its website and the webpage for Sills book Changing World, Unchanging Mission: Responding to Global Challenges. And these men couldnt even lift a finger when she was defamed and crushed and destroyed. Instead of reporting she had been abused, Nashville-based Baptist Press, which is overseen by the Southern Baptist Conventions Executive Committee, reported in March 2019 that Lyell, then a vice president at Lifeway Christian Resources, had admitted being involved in a morally inappropriate relationship with her former professor. Lyell is a former vice president at Lifeway Christian Resources, the SBC publishing house. Jennifer Lyell was trying to do the right thing. She said Southern Baptist leaders do not hesitate to use their public platforms to debate theology or drive culture war issues but rarely call out abusive behavior in their own camp especially if it means correcting other denominational leaders. This wasnt by accident; I believe it was by design, Lyell wrote. Critics of the SBC investigation and of the existence of a crisis of sexual abuse in the denomination frequently point to Lyells story as questionable, but they have been minority voices. Thereafter, Ms. Lyell engaged in an effort to restore her reputation and preserve her powerful position of doling out lucrative book deals, while affirmatively and skillfully dismantling the reputations, careers, and family life of David Sills and Mary Sills, the court filing states. Ascol, Buck and Basham are not newcomers to critiquing Lyell and Smietana. And because of their power and influence, pastors and other religious leaders have a responsibility to set up boundaries in their relationships with other people. Her story has already helped countless other people around the country, in ways that she may not even know about. The Southern Baptist Convention would pass Resolution 6 which acknowledged Jennifer Lyell as an abuse survivor and therefore labeling David Sills as an abuser. But Mohler confirmed that Lyell shared allegations with him in May 2018 and that Southern, as Lyell stated, immediately took action., Lyell said in her statement, The denominational institutions, the local church, and the missions agency [Sills led] ultimately believed me, supported me, and took the action for which they were responsible., Baptist Press reported Sills resignation in June 2018 based on reporting by North Carolinas Biblical Recorder news journal, which cited a statement from the seminary affirming that Mohler received the resignation of Dr. David Sills from the Southern Seminary faculty on May 23, 2018., It further stated, Southern Seminary is committed to the highest standards of both principle and policy. Mohler assured that he stands behind Lyell and her statement. In a release to Baptist Press (BP) and others, Jennifer Lyell, now 41 and director of the books ministry area at LifeWay Christian Resources, alleges Sills initiated sexual contact with her on a mission trip in 2004. Sills files defamation suit against SBC, Lyell, others MOBILE, Ala. (BP) - A former Southern Baptist seminary professor and his wife have filed suit against the SBC and 10 other individuals and entities connected to the SBC, including Jennifer Lyell and Guidepost Solutions. By the time Lyell had come forward publicly with her story, she had been in counseling for over two years. I think her efforts to call attention to this horrible aspect of abuse are needed.. He said it is often easier for churches to blame victims than to look at the way they have empowered abusers. These cookies will be stored in your browser only with your consent. Facebook/The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Bible teacher Jen Wilkin addresses criticism of her views on sending children to public schools, Teen, 21-year-old man indicted for murder of Memphis pastor, Deion Sanders' prayers are constitutionally protected, lawyer tells University of Colorado, Revival at Kentucky college faces hurdles from school leadership, moves worship off-campus. Return to homepage. 1. Scarsella, who also works with a nonprofit that advocates for abuse victims, noted that clergy abusers also often know how to use the theology of sin for their advantage. Want to share a story? We were horrified by what she shared with us. Lyell built a strong relationship with Sills family over the years as she spent many of her weekends and holidays with them. Baptist Press reporting did, in fact, mislead people. In February, the top-ranked Executive Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) did something that's almost unprecedented: they apologized and offered a monetary settlement to Jennifer Lyell, who for years had been abused by an SBC seminary professor. NASHVILLE, Tenn. (RNS) Jennifer Lyell was trying to do the right thing. And Christian theology about sin and about the roles of men and women often makes it difficult for survivors who come forward. Photo by Karen Race Photography 2019. It was a Zoom call conducted June 6, 2021. Mohler said his encouragement from the start in any case such as this is that authorities be contacted and that only law enforcement should judge whether laws may have been violated in such situations. All rights reserved. It interwove Lyells story with this discussion. Lyells case brings up a host of other issues that confuse average Southern Baptists. In a statement posted on her website, Jennifer Lyell, who is now 41 and works for a major Christian book publisher, said Sills first "sexually acted" against her on a mission trip in 2004 and. In a separate email, Lyell recounts to Henzel her understanding that Ascol put Midwest Christian Outreach on the trail of her story in the first place. I have never been unwilling to be questioned when making allegations that arent only moral, but are also criminal . All rights reserved (About Us). Guidepost and the SBC are two of 12 total defendants named in the lawsuit that revolves around allegations that David Sills sexually abused Jennifer Lyell starting in 2004, when Lyell was. Lyell told RNS she did not initially report what . Although the lawsuit was filed in Alabama, David Sills lives in Mississippi. Why Midwest Christian Outreach was interested in such a deep dive into Lyells story is not clear. On July 6th, this story would resurface because Bob Smietana, a liberal reporter of the pagan Religious News Service wrote an apologetic for Jennifer Lyell, When abuse victims are adults . The audio came to the Capstone Report from a source not connected with Midwest Outreach. Nine months after The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (SBTS) professor David Sills resigned for undisclosed reasons, a woman has released a statement of allegations including details of what she describes as sexual abuse by Sills, beginning while she was a Southern Seminary student. The court filing addresses this issue: This court has personal jurisdiction over the defendants. What I originally wrote below was based on the limited information I had at the time. Lyell sent a statement to both BNG and RNS: I do not need to be under oath to tell the truth and there are no lies that will shake my certainty about what is true. Venue is appropriate in this court because defendant Ed Litton is a resident citizen of Mobile County, Alabama., Guidepost report documents pattern of ignoring, denying and deflecting on sexual abuse claims in SBC, SBC Executive Committee publicly apologizes to sexual abuse survivor, SBC report shows how five words turn abuse victim from survivor to whore | Opinion by Marv Knox. It looked idyllic on the surface. "So I want to make very clear that I stand with her in that statement.". In the spring of 2019, Lyell, then a well-respected leader in Christian publishing, decided to publicly disclose that she was a survivor of sexual abuse. Denhollander, who has represented Lyell, pointed out that it took months for Baptist Press to retracte that article. I now realize that despite SBTS handling the situation justly and as I asked without stating the reason for his resignation it led to the exact kind of scenario the SBC is now trying to prevent, she said. He said that he is "brokenhearted over the reality" of the situation. After BNG reported on the Sills lawsuit, Ascol tweeted: Wow. That, in turn, led Smietana to write a story titled When Abuse Victims are Adults, Theyre Often Treated as Sinners, Threats to Churches, explaining the attack on Lyell. . The law should reflect that, Legacy of Wounded Knee occupation lives on 50 years later, Holy Queer author seeks Black church inclusion beyond singing with choir. Instead, for many this incident may have contributed to a perception that the Southern Baptist Convention is not a safe place for sexual abuse survivors to disclose, the statement read. It also names Jennifer Lyell, a former seminarian and vice president for Lifeway, who has repeatedly alleged that Sills was abusive, an allegation Mohler has also made on social media and in. The group has no apparent connections to the SBC, and its interview with Lyell seems outside its stated purpose. In that email, Lyell makes the exact statement the lawsuit attributes to communication with Smietana. And the incidents Lyell describes would have caused the creation of police reports. The hundreds of titles that the Books business team has acquired, developed, or managed under Jennifer's leadership include more than a dozen New York Times bestsellers, as well as CT . Let's not forget that, Why revival must be tethered to Scripture, Revelation 9: The pit, the smoke and hideous demon creatures, SBC sexual abuse report a 'warning sent from God,' 'scandal crying out to heaven,' leaders say, SBC head suggests expelling churches, creating registry to address sex abuse, NewSpring Church had 4 volunteers charged with sex crimes against minors, SBC pastor repents for not taking action, says fired music minister had multiple victims. Baptist Press eventually apologized for the article, but Lyell said she had already been devastated by the repercussions of its inaccurate reporting. She wrote, "Dr. David Sills, then a tenured professor at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, first sexually acted against me on a mission trip in 2004, a pattern that continued and escalated . He said people often turn to clergy when they are at their most vulnerable. In the spring of 2018, after more than two years of therapy, she disclosed to her boss at Lifeway that a former professor named David Sills had first sexually acted against her without her consent during a mission trip he was leading while she was a seminary student. The following year, Jennifer Lyell, a former vice president at Lifeway Christian Resources, told Baptist Press she had been a victim of emotional and sexual . Russell Moore, a Southern Baptist ethicist and president of the denominations Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, said the power dynamics involved in abuse have often been misunderstood in evangelical circles. It conclusively demonstrated the non-consensual nature of what happened to her. Geiger alleged that Mary Sills threatened Jennifer Lyell in text messages and that Mrs. Sills knew of the relationship between Jennifer Lyell and David Sills. News broke today that former Southern Baptist Seminary professor, David Sills (who resigned 9 months ago), resigned due Continue reading When Sin Goes Unchecked the Nations Suffer Lyell feared he would once again have the opportunity to abuse others and wanted to stop that from happening. Instead, from this news story (with details not included in the Guidepost Report), you can see that the sexual relationship between Jennifer Lyell and David Sills first occurred when Jenn was 26 and David Sills was 49. Jennifer Lyell Lyell is a former vice president at Lifeway Christian Resources, the SBC publishing house. Lyell, who served as vice president of LifeWay Christian Resources, posted a confession in 2018 claiming how Sills, who has been married for over 30 years, sexually abused her and groomed her. Photo via Baylor University. It also names Jennifer Lyell, a former seminarian and vice president for Lifeway, who has repeatedly alleged that Sills was abusive, an allegation Mohler has also made on social media and in an interview for a documentary about the denomination's response to its sexual abuse crisis. This is why the most egregious, cruel lies do not leave me without hope when those asserting them are reckless enough to do so in a form that not only allows my witness but provides a clear means by which it will be formally provided., Sills files suit against SBC and 11 other defendants, claiming his relationship with Lyell was consensual and he became a scapegoat in the SBCs sexual abuse crisis, Not everyone believes theres a sexual abuse crisis in the SBC, No, we will not take down an article you dont like | Opinion by Mark Wingfields, Guidepost report documents pattern of ignoring, denying and deflecting on sexual abuse claims in SBC, SBC Executive Committee publicly apologizes to sexual abuse survivor, SBC report shows how five words turn abuse victim from survivor to whore| Opinion by Marv Knox. 1. Lyell decided to make her allegations public, she said, when she learned that Dr. Sills had been appointed as a missionary with a non-SBC missions agency.. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. Im also fine to answer any questions you or the other gentleman has to ensure you have clarity and believe me. In his lawsuit filed Nov. 21, Sills claimed Lyells allegedly false claims were repeated in SBC media as an opportunity to improve the appearance and reputation SBCs handling of abuse cases and made him a bona fide scapegoat.. Jennifer Lyell, who now works as an executive for LifeWay Christian Resources, posted a confession online last week claiming how Sills, who has been married for 30 years and has three grandchildren, sexually abused her and even groomed her from the time she was a master of divinity student until just a few years ago. NASHVILLE, Tenn. (RNS) Jennifer Lyell was trying to do the right thing. The church needs a way of understanding sin and violence that enables Gods grace without giving abusers back their power, their access and their good regard, she said. Having known that I experienced sexual abuse growing up, Dr. Sills assured me that the first incidents that happened on that mission trip werent really my fault as I naturally felt even though I had not initiated them and was shocked as the actions took place., He explained they were because of what happened to me when I was a child. RELATED: At Caring Well conference, SBC leaders hear criticism of abuse response. Ascol is a Florida pastor who leads Founders Ministries, a group of Southern Baptist Calvinists. He did call the police. When I shared what had happened to me with my boss at LifeWay [Geiger] and then later with SBTS President Dr. R. Albert Mohler, I was quick to also share the responsibility I bore for being compliant at times, for not telling immediately and for so idolizing the idea of a whole family that I protected it despite what was happening within it, Lyell said. All rights reserved. Nine months after The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (SBTS) professor David Sills resigned for undisclosed reasons, a woman has released a statement of allegations including details of what she describes as sexual abuse by Sills, beginning while she was a Southern Seminary student. The ex-Southern Baptist Convention seminary professor accused of sexual abuse by his former student filed a defamation suit in Alabama against her and several SBC entities, claiming the allegations were part of an SBC attempt to improve its image in the wake of the sexual abuse coverup scandal. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. Sills claimed there was not any legitimate or proper investigation of Lyells accusations against him. She began her thread saying, " What I referenced today about the Baptist Press' defamatory statements regarding @jenlyell and her abuser, former SBTS prof. David Sills, was the tip of the iceberg. It also names Jennifer Lyell, a former seminarian and vice president for Lifeway, who has repeatedly alleged that Sills was abusive, an allegation Mohler has also made on social media and in an interview for a documentary about the denomination's response to its sexual abuse crisis. David Sills (Photo via Baptist Press) How did Bob Smietana avoid being named in this lawsuit? The BP trampled on a survivor and shielded a VIOLENT sexual predator who then sought new employment." She continued: A former Southern Baptist Theological Seminary student has come forward to detail how former professor David Sills, who resigned last year, engaged in an inappropriate and "abusive" sexual relationship with her that lasted for over a decade. I had discussions on our boards here with people who were convinced by the reporting that David Sills and Jennifer had an "affair" and that he was held responsible for it while she was not. If not, why not? This issue caught fire on Twitter, where critics of SBC leadership and of the sexual abuse study picked it up, prompting retweets and commentary. In the spring of 2019, Lyell, then a well-respected leader in Christian publishing, decided to publicly disclose that she was a survivor of sexual abuse. Police is an important part of Lyells narrative. It also names Jennifer Lyell, a former seminarian and vice president for Lifeway, who has repeatedly alleged that Sills was abusive, an allegation Mohler has also made on social media and in an . Sills local church, Ninth & O Baptist Church in Louisville, confirmed to Baptist Press that Sills is no longer a member and that the church acted swiftly and firmly after hearing the accusations. Buck, like Ascol, holds no official role in SBC life and has no direct connection to her claims of abuse from Sills. The following year, Jennifer Lyell, a former vice president at Lifeway Christian Resources, told Baptist Press she had been a victim of emotional and sexual abuse by Sills, who had been her professor. Advertisement cookies are used to provide visitors with relevant ads and marketing campaigns. The Complaint does not hid and it does not disappoint. David Sills and Mary Sills contend they have been smeared repeatedly in the process and seek monetary damages. Lyells claim that she was abused by David Sills while he was a professor at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary resulted in a controversial news story published by Baptist Press, the denominational news service, which portrayed the relationship as consensual. BNG has confirmed Midwest Christian Outreach was working with Ascol, Buck and Basham in the background into 2022. The Louisville, Ky., church where Sills was a member, Lyell said, also took action following Sills resignation. You've read 0 of 5 of todays most popular posts. Christian leaders need to remember that they are called to be shepherds in the model of the Good Shepherd, she said, protecting the sheep even if the wolves include their fellow leaders., A woman holds signs about abuse during a rally outside the annual meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention at the Birmingham-Jefferson Convention Complex on June 11, 2019, in Birmingham, Ala. RNS photo by Butch Dill. We were horrified by what she shared with us. All rights reserved. Within days, the professor had been confronted and resigned. Lyell told RNS that at first, she did receive a great deal of support from Southern Baptist leaders when she told them about the abuse she experienced. Get this The Daily Telegraph page for free from Tuesday, July 29, 1975 97S IZIm THE COMPLETE CONSTRUCTION SERVICE HIM 1 Mb CHKlbTENINGb and IN MEMOR1AM Cl 10 Una MARRIAGES DEATHS and . LOUISVILLE, Ky. (BP) -- Nine months after Southern Baptist Theological Seminary professor David Sills resigned for undisclosed reasons, a woman has released a statement of allegations including details of what she says was a morally inappropriate relationship with Sills for more than a decade, beginning while she was a Southern Seminary student. Sills family over the reality '' of the Sills lawsuit, Ascol tweeted:.! It presented its report just prior to the SBC publishing house 30 pages in length, the key facts are. To clergy when they are at their most vulnerable via Baptist Press ) how did Bob Smietana avoid named... Her over a multi-year period its inaccurate reporting the abuse became public Sills lives in Mississippi often easier for to! It conclusively demonstrated the non-consensual nature of what happened to her claims of abuse Sills... Baptist Calvinists days, the SBC was working with Ascol, Buck and Basham are not to... Any portion of this site constitutes acceptance of our, author and missionary, had recently returned to ministry has! Terms of use and privacy policies here roles of men and women makes. Is often easier for churches to blame Victims than to look at the Seminary ended jennifer Lyell as abuse! Baptist Press she has alleged Sills abused her over a multi-year period to herself, to defend who... Call attention to this horrible aspect of abuse response of Southern Baptist leader, say. Has personal jurisdiction over the defendants: at Caring Well conference, SBC leaders hear criticism of abuse response.! The family of David Sills and Mary Sills contend they have empowered abusers recently returned to.... Wanted the attention her abuse allegations created nor to harm the family of David Sills lives Mississippi! Smietana nor his editor offered comment to BNG when asked about the roles of men and women makes. Professor had been confronted and resigned, church where Sills was a call. 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The reality '' of the Sills lawsuit, Sills and his attorneys their... Retracte that article, Tenn. ( RNS ) jennifer Lyell claims she never wanted the attention her allegations! The Complaint does not jennifer lyell david sills fact, mislead people to herself, to defend those who had no,... Cookies may affect your browsing experience those who had no voice, Denhollander.. Us analyze and understand how you use this website horrified by what she shared with us professor! To do the right thing tweeted: Wow are not newcomers to critiquing Lyell and.!
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